Cactus Cultivars

Author Topic: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki  (Read 6396 times)

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Offline AstrophytumCultivars.com

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Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« on: Thursday, 26 September 2013 - 09:54:01 »
Hello,
I just bought on ebay this cultivar
Astrophytum asterias HANAKAYO NISHIKI

Have you ever heard about this name HANAKAYO ?
« Last Edit: Friday, 18 October 2013 - 22:13:37 by ToKra »
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With best regards
Tomas Kramaric (Central EU, Slovakia)
mailto:astrophytum@tokra.sk
https://picasaweb.google.com/116926721104617607050

Offline AstrophytumCultivars.com

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Re: Astrophytum asterias HANAKAYO NISHIKI
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday, 02 October 2013 - 22:55:34 »
As I got info that this plant could be : KIKKOW MUSCLE NISHIKI
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With best regards
Tomas Kramaric (Central EU, Slovakia)
mailto:astrophytum@tokra.sk
https://picasaweb.google.com/116926721104617607050

Offline cortona

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Re: Astrophytum asterias KIKKO MUSCLE NISHIKI
« Reply #2 on: Saturday, 05 October 2013 - 15:25:25 »
yep, the previus name is a mispelling of the term hanakago, that if i remember right are for the astrophytum

Offline Frank

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Re: Astrophytum asterias KIKKO MUSCLE NISHIKI
« Reply #3 on: Saturday, 12 October 2013 - 08:12:50 »
The cactus on the photo is Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki, I think.
Hanakago means Azutekium ritteri.

The meaning of the name is " Variegated asterias v nudum looked like Azutekium ritteri".

Offline Karlet

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Re: Astrophytum asterias KIKKO MUSCLE NISHIKI
« Reply #4 on: Saturday, 12 October 2013 - 12:10:45 »
It is always very instructive to read your explanations Frank, thank you!
Carlo

Offline AstrophytumCultivars.com

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Re: Astrophytum asterias KIKKO MUSCLE NISHIKI
« Reply #5 on: Saturday, 12 October 2013 - 18:18:49 »
The cactus on the photo is Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki, I think.
Hanakago means Azutekium ritteri.

The meaning of the name is " Variegated asterias v nudum looked like Azutekium ritteri".

Thanks Frank for explanation, where you go for this answers? :)
I also think that Kikkow Muscle Nishiki is also correct name.
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With best regards
Tomas Kramaric (Central EU, Slovakia)
mailto:astrophytum@tokra.sk
https://picasaweb.google.com/116926721104617607050

Offline Frank

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Re: Astrophytum asterias KIKKO MUSCLE NISHIKI
« Reply #6 on: Saturday, 12 October 2013 - 22:54:21 »
G'morning ToKra

I knew the cactus named "Hanakago Rampo", myriostigma looked like Azutekium ritteri.
The cactus can not make any flowers and so you only can increase numbers by offset grafting.
Since I did not know the name of "Hanakago Kauto", I visited the website introduced the Hanakago Rampo.
The website also introduced "Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki" with a photo.
The cactus on the photo is very similar to your cactus.
It said Hanazono Ruri-kabuto Nishiki could make flowers and the cactus on the photo had a flower.

The name of Kikkow Muscle Nishiki is mixed Japanese and English.
I do not know where the name came from but I am quite sure it does not came from Japan because I am a Japanese.

Offline AstrophytumCultivars.com

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Re: Astrophytum asterias KIKKO MUSCLE NISHIKI
« Reply #7 on: Friday, 18 October 2013 - 22:08:46 »
G'morning ToKra

I knew the cactus named "Hanakago Rampo", myriostigma looked like Azutekium ritteri.
The cactus can not make any flowers and so you only can increase numbers by offset grafting.
Since I did not know the name of "Hanakago Kauto", I visited the website introduced the Hanakago Rampo.
The website also introduced "Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki" with a photo.
The cactus on the photo is very similar to your cactus.
It said Hanazono Ruri-kabuto Nishiki could make flowers and the cactus on the photo had a flower.

The name of Kikkow Muscle Nishiki is mixed Japanese and English.
I do not know where the name came from but I am quite sure it does not came from Japan because I am a Japanese.

Big thanks to explanation.

I also know that name is mix of Eng & JAP, so I will name it as you said : Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
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With best regards
Tomas Kramaric (Central EU, Slovakia)
mailto:astrophytum@tokra.sk
https://picasaweb.google.com/116926721104617607050

Offline Simon

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #8 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 08:21:00 »
I mean no disrespect but I think this thread raises an issue with names.
Some of the original Japanese terms used for cultivars make the names very complicated and I think sooner or later something will need to be worked out for this.
I agree that giving the breeders naming rights of the cultivar traits they have selected is an honour that they have earned. But I also think that the purpose of a name is to identify and describe what it is applied to and for practical use a name must be easy to link to the plant it describes. Already we have mixture of Japanese and English names. I can imagine in future we could end up with mixtures of Japanese,Thai, English, Chinese, Italian, Chzech etc.
I recently sold a plant which was effectively a Fukuryu banjaku hakujo koh-yo.....I am not even sure if that is right or the order is correct but I am sure that if I called it an 8 rib, white line, coloured fukuryu it would be easier for most collectors to understand, identify and remember.
In particular I think using Japanese names for traits like 'variegated' and species like Aztekium is impractical. I may be a bit ignorant but after ten years collecting astro cvs I only just learned from Frank's informative posts that Kabuto means Asterias. I always thought kabuto means the big white flecks of Super Kabuto, which itself is an English mix Japanese name.
Then there is an issue with pronunciation. We recently had a Japanese guest visit us and I was really hoping she could help me with the correct pronunciation of the names. I often talk to people about these cultivars but I have no idea how the names should be said because I have only ever seen them written and never heard them said by a fluent japanese speaker. Pronunciation of some is obvios but others like ooibo i have no idea. Is it oh-eye-bow or oo(as in who)-ee-boh? There are several other possible ways of pronouncing that too. Our Japanese friend was unable to help because she was not a cactus collector and using only the names written in the English alphabet, not Japanese script meant she had no idea.
Please don't get me wrong, I like the Japanese names and I understand that subtle meaning expressed in other languages are often lost when translated into plain english. I don't know what a good solution is but I do see it as a developing problem. I believe these cultivars will continue to be collected into the future and that with time more advanced and complicated forms will be produced. Perhaps the time to discuss this and work something out is now. Just putting it out there.... like I said I mean no disrespect.

Offline robinast

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #9 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 10:22:59 »
Yes, Simon, I have been thinking nearly the same thoughts.... I think we should use the names of cultivars, be they of Japanese origin or not - but I doubt that it would be practical to always use the Japanese - or whatever language! - descriptions.  'Super Kabuto'  and 'Onzuka' f.e have been in use for a long time and though they actually are not the names of varieties (as both names cover a wide range of different, both in appearance and genetically, plants), they give us certain clues what to expect. Probably the same with 'Kikko' and 'Koh-Yo' . Nevertheless, even these - and not only these! - names are often misused: if you look for astrophytums on eBay f.e, you can see now and again that a so-called 'Super Kabuto' actually is a capXas hybrid (sometimes even not with remarkable white spots) and 'Onzuka' is nothing but a common myriostigma or myXor / or/my hybrid. I don't know much about the Ariocarpus cultivars - but I have a sense that the things with the ario names are not better.

What to do? I think a good idea would be to gather all the available information together and place in a fixed place here on the forum, so that everyone can easily access this information. I mean something like this:

Astrophytum asterias 'Super Kabuto', 'Super-Kabuto':  a group of breeds  with bigger and hairier white flecks than the species has in nature. The plant body may be covered with the flecks entirely or partly. Ribs must be flat, sharp ribs indicate that the plant is a hybrid and as such, can not be called 'Super Kabuto'. 'Kabuto' is A. asterias in Japanese.

Astrophytum asterias 'Hanazono': a group of breeds with areoles also between ribs. Flowers appear over the whole plant body. May have or may not have big white flecks like 'Super Kabuto'. 'Hanazono' means... well, I actually do not know what it means. :)

But what about fe 'Onzuka' + 'Kikko' + 'Hakujo' + 'Fukuryu' + .. I do not know, whatever? That kind of "names" in fact are ugly and barely usable. A much shorter name would be much more preferable. But how to obtain it? A lot of enthusiasts and breeders may result the similar looking plants using different breeding programs. It's principally simple case, when an striking new form appears that can be propagated only by vegetative means - then it's a true variety and it's breeders names it. The others only have to accept the name nad that's it. But if several breeders develop similar looking plants that are propagated sexually, we got a group of breeds, not a true variety and who says how to name this group?
Some pictures from my collection:
http://e-aiand.com/kollektsioon/index.php

Offline Frank

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #10 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 12:11:35 »
Japanese cultivars' names

More than 10% of words used by Japanese daily are English origin (from USA) but they are not English, are Japanese.
Japanese pronounce them very differently but the spellings are same if you wrote in English because of English origin words.

eg. super kabuto
Super is an English origin Japanese, no other Japanese words
Asterias is English and kabuto is Japanese for asterias. Asterias has not yet become Japanese.
Both of super and kabuto are Japanes words. (スーパ兜)
Miracle kabuto is also same.
Miracle is an English origin Japanese word.

Japanese intend to make a cultivar name by using daily used Japanese words, not mixed English and Japanese.

Offline robinast

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #11 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 12:41:28 »
Japanese intend to make a cultivar name by using daily used Japanese words, not mixed English and Japanese.
I guess so and I also tend to think that mixed languages in cultivar names actually is not a good practise.
Frank, 'kabuto' actually is a special Japanese war helmet and A. asterias bears this name because it's body resembles this helmet by shape, isn't it? I have a sense that I have read about it somewhere - but I do not remember exactly.
Some pictures from my collection:
http://e-aiand.com/kollektsioon/index.php

Offline Frank

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #12 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 21:07:55 »
G'morning robinast

Kabuto is a helmet of armor used by Samuri in their period.
Since the appearance of asterias is similar to the helmet, it was named as kabuto.
Yoroi is the armor which was used by Samurai.

Hanazono is a flower garden.
Hana: flower
zono: garden
Hanazono kabuto opens multiple flower together likes flower garden and named "Hanazono".

Onzuka is a Japanese family name.
The cactus we called Onzuka now was developed by Mr Onzuka years ago.
He published  the cactus in a cactus related magazine and introduced.
Since it was a new cactus, a Japanese cactus authority accepted to use his name as the cultivar.

Kikko: turtle shell

Hakujo: white belt
Haku: white
jo: belt

Fukuryu: complex ribs
fuku: complex
ryu: rib

Hanakago means Azutekium rittrii in catus related words but the original mean is a basket filled up with flowers.
I believe a normal Japanese will translate hanakago as the basket.


Frank

Offline robinast

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #13 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 21:54:37 »
Thank you, Frank! Your explanations have been very interesting and valuable indeed!  :)
If you don't mind, I'll bother you a bit more...

About 'Kikko'. Your explanation makes a name like A. asterias 'Turtle Kikko' a nonsence as the 'kikko' itself means 'turtle shell' already. So, it is very well understandable why a cultivar seen on the following picture is called 'Kikko'.
http://www.e-aiand.com/kollektsioon/displayimage.php?album=2&pid=38#top_display_media
But less clear is why several forms of myriostigma, coahuilense and ornatum also are known as 'Kikkos', especially the ones with long and prominent warts. F.e like the following:
http://www.e-aiand.com/kollektsioon/displayimage.php?album=5&pid=48#top_display_media
Are these known as 'Kikko's also in Japan or only  here in Europe?
Some pictures from my collection:
http://e-aiand.com/kollektsioon/index.php

Offline Frank

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #14 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 22:26:11 »
robinast

1st one is a kikko kabuto.
ki: turtle
kko: shell

I believe 2nd one is not called kikko in Japan.
It is a monstrosa called "Konpeito".
Konpeito is a traditional Japanese sugar candy.
They call it as Konpeito but it is not an official cultivar name.

Frank

Offline robinast

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #15 on: Saturday, 19 October 2013 - 23:12:59 »
Monstrosa? Hmmm... I, if to be honest, have some doubts. Monstrosas should have irregular growth and usually several growing points in different  unexpected places - but this form has a single growing point on the very top and a regular growth.
Besides, sugar candy in Estonian sounds a bit similar to Japanese 'konpeito' - 'kompvek' or 'kompu'.  :)
Some pictures from my collection:
http://e-aiand.com/kollektsioon/index.php

Offline Frank

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #16 on: Sunday, 20 October 2013 - 02:05:26 »
robinast

I mean Japanese nurseries have sold the cactus as named monstrosa.
eg, if the plant was a coahuilense, they named "Hakuran monsutorosa".
They just call any abnormal cacti without specific cultivar names as monstrosa.

Frank

Offline vitostarkiller

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Re: Astrophytum asterias cv. Hanakago Ruri-kabuto Nishiki
« Reply #17 on: Sunday, 20 October 2013 - 06:26:51 »
What an amazing flow of information.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed, and special thanks for all the dedication!
Awesome post  ;D
"Life is full of cacti, but you don't have sit on them"

 

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