Cactus Cultivars

Author Topic: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)  (Read 7488 times)

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Offline Arioandi

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Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« on: Sunday, 04 December 2011 - 10:53:05 »
Great plants, here my 'Yoroi's'





Offline maurice.schoemans

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #1 on: Sunday, 04 December 2011 - 11:06:43 »
Great plant my friends

Offline Carlo & Daniele

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #2 on: Sunday, 04 December 2011 - 17:27:06 »
Super plants Andi, it's really incredible how various is this rare cultivar!
The plant in your second photo is just awesome!

Carlo & Daniele
Carlo & Daniele

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #3 on: Monday, 05 December 2011 - 09:37:18 »
some really nice plants here, isn't it?

Offline gk80

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #4 on: Monday, 12 December 2011 - 00:53:03 »
Great plants. I already watched all your other posts and it's simply amazing.
I keep wondering how these amazing cultivars are created.
I sowed many thousands of astro seeds and I obtained only a few variegated ones.
Now I'm making some crosses with imported plants, and I'm getting better results. But still, I simply don't understand how do you create such great plants from scratch.

Congratulations!! And thank you so much for showing this amazing cultivars!!

Offline cortona

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #5 on: Monday, 12 December 2011 - 10:35:51 »
hi gk80 we do not create it from scratch simply.
sometime we buy plants were they are created,sometime we will excange nice clones, sometime we sow seeds from ou plants, basicaly the big part of the work was done in japan year ago wen nurseryman find mutated plants and start to select, if you look in the net you can find the first superkabuto or myracuru plant's photo, after this stage tousands of tousands if not milions of seeds was sown, plants was crossed in order to have better ofspring.... so now you can enjoy the plants showed here; no gamma ray, no radiation are involed.

Offline SEA

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #6 on: Monday, 12 December 2011 - 20:03:18 »
My plant

Offline gk80

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday, 13 December 2011 - 04:14:22 »
Thank you cortona for answering!!

hi gk80 we do not create it from scratch simply.
sometime we buy plants were they are created,sometime we will excange nice clones, sometime we sow seeds from ou plants, basicaly the big part of the work was done in japan year ago wen nurseryman find mutated plants and start to select, if you look in the net you can find the first superkabuto or myracuru plant's photo, after this stage tousands of tousands if not milions of seeds was sown, plants was crossed in order to have better ofspring.... so now you can enjoy the plants showed here; no gamma ray, no radiation are involed.

I really want to believe this  :D  but based on my very short experience, it's impossible to obtain a new cultivar starting only from a mutant plant that shows up among regular seedlings.
I sowed MANY astro seeds and it seems I'm completely out of luck because I've only found a few variegated ones.
When I say "many" I mean a lot of seeds... really. Maybe around 30000 seeds since I started with this hobby about 6 years ago.
Maybe if I keep sowing I find something nice  ;)
Please don't missunderstand me. I really enjoy all this and the plants on your posts... I'm just left with a weird feeling.... just like when you see a magic trick and you end up scratching your head and thinking for yourself "how did he do it?"... you know what I mean...  ;)

Offline Astro

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday, 13 December 2011 - 16:37:11 »
 I will dare to disagree with you. I know one selector in Ukraine which by means of pollination specific Astrophytums (senile, asterias, coachuilense, capricorne) have received a lot of interesting Cultivars (ooibo, multiribs, kikko, asterias fucurui....) It is Sergey Miroshnichenko. Very soon it will show a photo of own hybrids. All is possible!

Offline Carlo & Daniele

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday, 13 December 2011 - 17:00:30 »
And this is a rather complex cultivar, it is kikko and fukuryu togheter...
I heard seedlings are firstly fukuryu and with years they start to be kikko too.
Soo, it's a problem, of time, selection and patience! Japanese are masters on it!
You can begin crossing a marked kikko with a super fukuryu like we did, and side reverse, but so far no extremely remarkable result.
Need to wait and select the nice forms!
Carlo & Daniele

Offline cortona

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday, 13 December 2011 - 17:43:31 »
wath seems unclear to you is that we start with plants that HAVE specific trait of the cultivar, and in the ofsprings we select the best plants with the best expression of the cultivar trait, nobody that i know start sowing plain myriostigma and obtain fukuruyu plants.
if you can see the firsts plants that show the fukuruyu trait it are realy les marked tan the super fukuruyu we have now and the first sk are realy far to be a snowtype


Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday, 13 December 2011 - 17:48:49 »
in addition, some of those old cultivars are very similar to some digitostigma hybrid too, so maybe they are F50 ... hybrid, wich has been grown as inbred selection!

x rays are used in some gimocalycium to make those totally variegated forms( microsomal damages in F2 an F3.
BUT,i personally don't think it is a matter of chemistry in astrophytums.

just a long way of Inbreeding selection and casual mutation in hybrids and classic forms( huge numbers, collected from nurseries and nature in the past).

the mutation is helped by crossing quite speciated (in the meaning of speciation) plants, with unpredictable offset.

Offline gk80

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #12 on: Thursday, 15 December 2011 - 02:38:36 »
Hello Astro,
I'm only speaking out of my own experience (which is very short and limited).
And based on this short experience it was impossible to me to achieve any results similar to the ones posted on this site or on many other japanese websites.
I didn't get even close.
A few variegated plants is all I've got.
Of course I've crossed many Astrophytums and I obtained many nice plants. But all of them are regular forms which can be obtained by anyone else and they don't deserve the name "cultivar". They're simply hibrids.
I'm sure Mr. Sergey Miroshnichenko obtained many nice cultivars... but it's the same story as with japanese creations. We're simply told HOW, but we really don't know.
Do you know of any cultivar created on another country? All the famous cultivars I know were created in Japan.
Because of all this, I think it's hard to believe that there's nothing else involved. I'm not talking about x-rays or gamma rays or anything specific. But if you ask me, I'm convinced there's something else.

Now that I obtained many cultivars from asia, I started to make some other crossings and I'm getting much better results... but to be able to achieve this better results I had to get some improved genetics from somewhere else. I wasn't able to obtain a single mutation by myself with my own plants. And trust me, I own many many astro plants lol

Take for example what Carlo & Daniele says. They have a good kikko and a good fukuryou and they still can't get the results they're seeking.
I will be looking forward to see the plants they will select from the crossings and follow the development of new generations.
I honestly hope they can get something remarkable.
But even then... don't forget they are starting with imported genetics.

Even now that many cultivars are available worldwide... and that astros are becoming a hobby by itself, no one was able to create a new plant as the japanese did.

If there's such a creation, then I take back what I wrote and I would LOVE to see the cultivar.

cortona:
Exactly that's what I'm talking about:
nobody that i know start sowing plain myriostigma and obtain fukuruyu plants

fanecchissimo:
Again, I'm not talking specifically about xrays or gamma rays. I'm talking in general. I think there's SOMETHING there... I've no clue WHAT is there.
i personally don't think it is a matter of chemistry in astrophytums.
...
just a long way of Inbreeding selection and casual mutation in hybrids and classic forms
Well, then I think japanese are very lucky people. In about 30000 seedlings I sowed I was only able to get a handful of "rare" plants. Even when creating hibrids.

This keeps being a mystery to me. Meanwhile, I hope you keep creating new cultivars and sharing the results so we all can enjoy.
Maybe one of these days I will be lucky enough to get something different  8)

Thank you all for sharing your comments.... and also: congratulations and THANK YOU for creating such magnificent plants for all of us to enjoy!!

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #13 on: Thursday, 15 December 2011 - 09:39:24 »
some old astro and ario professional grower told me that the most valuable option is that some of those japanese had some digitostigma, or already some digitostigma hybrids from nature.

Paolo Panarotto, a great plant seller here in italy, obtained some digitostigma hybrids that are SO close to onzuka and sk.

I don't know the origin of every single cultivar, but I still think that it is a inbreeding selection on little, little, little particular shape or color...

Anyway your opinion is respectful, but i think you should talk about millions plants, not thousand for having some casual somatic mutation.

you can speed up the process going to big nurseries, and selecting the "little strange" plants that would otherwise go to a normal shop, like orchids and so on...


but if you think the whole process, to obtain a sk snow or an hannya is shorter than your life, i wouldn't be so sure...

of course if you work on plants already inbred and selected.. homozygous, the work is way faster!

obviously i don't want to offend anyone, just to show some different point of view... :)



Offline Carlo & Daniele

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #14 on: Thursday, 15 December 2011 - 15:52:38 »
Please remind that asterias book from T. Sato is from 1973, myriostigma book is from 1994.
You can already find there a lot of cultivars we have nowadays in Europe.
There are collectors in japan that select only kabuto for all their life...we are speaking about 40-50 years of selection compared to few years.
Carlo & Daniele

Offline xwa27

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #15 on: Thursday, 15 December 2011 - 18:06:16 »

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #16 on: Thursday, 15 December 2011 - 18:42:55 »
XWA.. nice plant. not symmetrical, but nice!

are you going to breed it with a normal kikko?

Offline xwa27

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #17 on: Thursday, 15 December 2011 - 20:25:11 »
Yes i thing i will try whit both sides whit kikko and fukuryu ;)

Offline gk80

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #18 on: Thursday, 15 December 2011 - 23:55:30 »
Thank you one more time. I really appreciate your comments.
And of course we don't want to offend anyone. It's just an exchange of thoughts  ;)

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: Re: myriostigma nudum cv. Yoroi (kikko fukuryu)
« Reply #19 on: Monday, 09 January 2012 - 20:09:55 »
@ SEA

you yoroi has some kikko between the ribs in practice.
is it fertile as male or female??

i find it perfect, if possible better than other ones... do you have any son from it?
what cross did you try? with kikko or fukuryu?

i would be very glad to know...

PS: sorry for i am late... but i didn't see it!

 

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