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Offline cortona

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a monstrose form
« on: Friday, 04 November 2011 - 17:47:28 »
that is a photo of one of my ario(ever less tan wath i like but.. sow sow sow..)is a monstrose form of kotsokibeianus but despite is crazyness it flower!!!!!!



hope you like it and hope that next year i've my oter kotso flowering  in the same moment in order to try pollinate the flowers

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #1 on: Friday, 04 November 2011 - 19:53:51 »
my uncle had a perfectly identical, but elder...
it died because the scion killed the stock.

growing it could suffocate the stock.
i would cut the stock and keep it low on soil... but it is just an opinion

fantastic plant anyway...

Offline Simon

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #2 on: Saturday, 05 November 2011 - 06:52:02 »
I have seen this type of growth occur on parts of several Ariocarpus species when they are grafted on Pereskiopsis as very young seedlings. The areas that produce this sort of growth often take over the entire scion.
I also observe that this type of growth is usually generated from the parts of the plants tissue that were present in the early seedling stage so you will usually see it around the base of the scion or near the base of the youngest tubercles.
I have a theory to explain what has occurred to cause this type of growth. I believe the plant hormones that the scion receives from the stock are causing somatic embryogenisis to occur within the tissues of the scion. This is usually only observed under tissue culture conditions where synthetic hormones added to the culture media cause cells that were originally part of a plants body to revert back to an embryonic state and germinate much like a seedling does. If you look carefully at the new growth points when they are tiny you can often see all the characteristics of very young seedlings, i.e fattened blob like body then immature tubercles bearing spines. They literally look like tiny seedlings germinating out of cells that make up the body of the plants. This is the definition of somatic embryogenisis. I am unable to find references describing ebryogenisis outside of tissue culture being caused by the graft stock but I think that investigation by way of preparing a microscope slide of the cells in the areas where this type of growth is originating would reveal some cells in the classic stages of embryo formation for plants. E.g heart stage, torpedo stage ect.

Interestingly the plants that grow as a result of somatic embryogenisis often exhibit what is known as somaclonal variation. This variation can produce new genetics that may be selected and propagated. A few times I have seen that parts of this type of growth on ariocarpus can be variegate and I think that if they were regrafted a new variegate line of the species may be propagated.
Anyway I think that is a very interesting mutation...

Offline cortona

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #3 on: Saturday, 05 November 2011 - 08:02:36 »
Dear simon, wath you tel is partialy true, in effect this type of grownt are present on this form but if you look with attention to the areoles you can se that new growt come from every areola and not only arise from callos tissue, wath you tel is absolutely true if you look on astrophytum cultivar at the work of my frend Malospine, he contine to graft the more red part of a monstrose asterias Ikari-YOKO so he obain from the first photos the last one that are considerably different... and that is wath you are eplaining i think,

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #4 on: Saturday, 05 November 2011 - 13:30:18 »
i think it is a hormones factor too, but i am not sure i did understand what you mean.

i think that excess of auxines deriving from stock could somehow interact on replication of the scion, but i think "embryogenesis" in plants is quite a normal process during branching...
remember that plants are not a bilateral symmetry organism, so i think it is quite a normal behavior if you add some auxines( from stock, or artificial.)

to me the most easy theory is a greater sensibility to auxines from the stock, wich is common in cactus hybrids.
the other point is that auxines produced from the top of the plant should slow down branch growth, but if the top(scion) is not able to grow fast and strong enough it is normal to have branching from the lower parts!
EG: if you graft a very tiny plant on very big stock you have a good probability to have branching even from the stock...

is it possible to you? ;D

Offline Frank

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #5 on: Saturday, 05 November 2011 - 22:00:54 »
How about this one.
My ariocarpus scaphirostris, degrafted own roots.

Offline cortona

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #6 on: Saturday, 05 November 2011 - 22:19:59 »
wooooooowwwwww wath an ario!!!!!!!
that can become a real monster(in the orignal latin means of the term:  monstrum :something to show!) wen the multiple heads mature  this plant  become more and more actrattive

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #7 on: Saturday, 05 November 2011 - 23:50:44 »
@ frank: really nice plant.

nothing to say about why does it grow this way?

Offline cortona

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #8 on: Sunday, 06 November 2011 - 02:31:29 »
fane this is a degrafted plant so if you graft a realy young seedling in a vigorous rootstock....it can(not must but can) grow in such a marvelius way

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #9 on: Sunday, 06 November 2011 - 16:52:59 »
of course, Emanuele,but please read above and you will see that i was asking about it in a physio- molecular way...
 ;D

Offline Frank

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #10 on: Sunday, 06 November 2011 - 21:35:00 »
G'morning Emanuele and fane

I do not know exact reason and do not gather statistics but When you graft young seedlings:
1. Cut scion at tap root (a part of tap root is remaind on th scion)-multi-heads
2. Cut scion at upper part of the scion-single head

As I said I did not know the reason but I use the method (1) when I want to make a multi-heads plant.

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #11 on: Monday, 07 November 2011 - 08:15:20 »
interesting... :o

is this true also for astros on peresk?

Offline Frank

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #12 on: Monday, 07 November 2011 - 09:38:47 »
fane

Honestly I am not sure becase I have never grafted astro on peresk.

Offline Simon

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #13 on: Monday, 07 November 2011 - 11:24:10 »
Sorry for being so complicated and I don't mean to change the topic on this thread.
I am very interested to discuss this with people like yourselves who understand ariocarpus.
Hi Cortona, You are right the growth is from the areole and that can be the normal place for branching. And also what you say about this growth is more common originating from callous tissue is true but sometimes it can come from areole too.
 There are two things about your Kotchoubeyanus that I find unusual and make me suspect embryogenisis(cells germinating into seedlings because of hormone effects) instead of normal branching.
First the new shoots have characteristics of seedlings. If you look at the last picture there is a large head below center with a tubercle pointing at an immature offset. This small off set looks just like a young seedling to me.
Second I notice many babies coming from some areoles which is not normal branching because there is only one bud that becomes a branch at each branch site usually.
This photo shows the beginning of these baby plants around the base of the lower tubercles and there is also one coming from the areole to the left. Because this plant is variegated the babies coming from those parts will likely be the same colour. Propagating from there would be like what your friend did with that incredible astro monstrose.



Offline Simon

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #14 on: Monday, 07 November 2011 - 13:01:02 »
Fane. You could be right maybe the stock is causing the dormant buds on those ariocarpus to activate and grow. But normal branching is different from embrogenisis.
When a plant grows the cells are dividing at the tips very quickly. As they grow out from the tip the cells differentiate into tiny immature leaves and buds. Later, if the growing point is damaged the buds that stay dormant can be activated by hormones and grow into a branch or an offset on a cactus. That is how normal branching happens.
In tissue cultures the plants can be made to produce different types of growth, either shoots, roots or callous depending on the combinations of hormones used.
 Sometime hormones can also cause somatic embryogenisis. This is when single cells revert back to become embryos that then germinate like seedlings. Because the somatic embryos come from single cells and they have undergone a very unnatural development and mutations sometimes occur and can be selected for. In fact for tissue culture propagation preventing mutation can be a problem!
I think maybe the stock is causing this type of embryo growth to occur in ariocarpus that show mass proliferation. So maybe it is hormones not mutant genes or branching that is causing this growth.
The first picture below shows A. bravoanus that is growing mass proliferation from between the lower tubercles. If you look just left of the center of the photo you can see a few pinkish blobs under the skin. These areas I believe are ungerminated embryos.
When they grow they look like the second picture of A. retusus cv. pectinatus. As you can see the new plants look just like baby seedlings of ariocarpus not offsets. One in the middle is even growing a root.


[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/36369542@N04/6321959170/]





Offline Simon

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #15 on: Monday, 07 November 2011 - 13:20:03 »
So sorry for talking too much but i am very interested to talk about this. I think maybe a new way of propagating and making mutations can result from this.
So last I want to talk about making that type of growth occur.
The photos below show the start of this type of growth just under the tubercles low on the plant.
It can also happen in other places and I think Frank is right that grafting seedlings with a bit of the root makes it happen more often. Also Frank that's an awesome A.scaphirostris you have.
I usually only graft plants to produce seed so this type of mass proliferation growth is a problem because it rarely matures enough to make many flowers. I try to avoid making this growth happen usually. I have noticed that it is more likely to happen if grafts are done of very young seedlings. It is also more likely if the grafts are grown fast with a lot of fertilizer.
I think that if the tops of the plants in the pictures are removed above the lowest tubercles then that will force the mass proliferation to grow from the areas where there are lots of tiny spines. If this area is a section of unusual coloured variegate growth then the plants that grow from there should be all veriegated. I will try cutting the tops off some plants like these ones and post here the results.


[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/36369542@N04/6321959158/]

oct15 042 by cryptocarpa, on Flickr

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: a monstrose form
« Reply #16 on: Monday, 07 November 2011 - 19:42:14 »
maybe the most interesting topic, to me...

let us know if you find proof for your theory, which is fascinating... ;)

 

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