Cactus Cultivars

Author Topic: Weird Astro  (Read 6274 times)

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Offline kikko

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Weird Astro
« on: Monday, 05 December 2011 - 18:23:08 »

« Last Edit: Monday, 30 January 2012 - 17:42:21 by Carlo & Daniele »

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday, 06 December 2011 - 11:28:37 »
nice nice nice... i like it! so unusual! :)

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday, 07 December 2011 - 19:11:00 »
do you think it is epigenetic or a mosaicism?

Offline kikko

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday, 07 December 2011 - 19:25:04 »
I think it's genetic...

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #4 on: Thursday, 08 December 2011 - 08:41:15 »
hope it passes on seeds! ;)

Offline xwa27

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, 08 December 2011 - 16:50:33 »

Offline cortona

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #6 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 01:01:05 »
O M G that's a real weird ones! an asterias i suppose!
tel me that this plant produce viable seeds....please!......my friend you are a gold mine of beautiful photos and plants! my compliments!

Offline cactuspassion

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #7 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 02:27:02 »
nice nice nice... i like it! so unusual! :)

Hahaha!! asterias cv.halfyii (half&half)

Offline Simon

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #8 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 05:27:57 »
Just thought I'd add my opinion on what is happening on that astro parchis sorry if it long and technical.
I think what you have is a type of chimera. Graft chimeras with tissue from two separate species are what we normally call chimera but in this case you have a sectorial chimera. This means that two different sectors of the plant have different genetics. i.e part normal, part without flecks. These types of chimera occur because all the growth of a plant originates from a few very special cells in the meristem that are called initials. Initials divide and reproduce themselves and a somatic cell(cells that form part of the body of the plant) each time. The initial cells always remain in at the growth point. The somatic cells then go on to divide many times and gradually as the growth gets further from the meristem they differentiate into the cells that make up the parts of a plant. It is not fully understood how plants organize their cells to attain their morphology but a system of hormonal triggers and feedback is involved.
Anyway what causes a sectorial chimera? It is when some of the initials carry a gene for flecks and some don't. All the cells in a particular sector originate from a particular initial cell and so if that cell does not have the flecks gene then that sector of the plant also wont have flecks.
Usually sectors are very specific and sometimes you will see variegate chimeras where exactly half or one quarter of the plant is coloured. Sometimes a chimera is in one layer of a plant too. For example red apples carry a mutation that is only in the outer layer of cells(called the L1 layer). If you take cells from inside a red apple and grow them in tissue culture then generate a tree the fruit will be all green because the cells inside do not have the mutant gene. The same is true for the thornless blackberry variety that will grow with thorns if plants are propagated from internal cells.
Something that is very interesting with your plant is that the sector is half plus 1/16. This indicates that A. asterias has 16 initials which is a very high number. Also the way the 1/16 sector is dividing down the line of the areoles suggests that the initials are each responsible for the formation of half a rib.
What you have is a truly remarkable plant, something that the plant biologists and morphologists would be very interested in.
This is a picture of Ariocarpus trigonis X scaphirostrus that I suspect is a sectorial chimera.
I will get some more pics of a few plants in my collection that I suspect are sectorial chimera and post them here.


cacti 130 by cryptocarpa, on Flickr

Offline Simon

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #9 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 07:39:32 »
Well I may have reached too far trying to explain all that but I hope it's interesting. I have created a new thread on the Other Cultivars section to further discuss this.

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #10 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 09:16:29 »
I honestly studied animal genetics only, in a decent manner (human medicine student).

They told me this could be a mosaicism. it means that clones of different cells starting up from the first cell created by impollination grew together.

it is similar to a chimera, but in a chimera you talk about really different cells ( example.. look at sheep-goat chimera) while in the mosaicism the mutation can also be postewrior to the mutation, or the characteristic could be due to gene silencing.

an example of mosaicism in humans are spots of blond hairs in a black haired individual...
that is so similar to this case, and makes easy to understand why it does not take a perfect number of "slices"...
to me this is the case.
but this is only my opinion, wich is not so valuable.

nice theory anyway Simon! :)

Offline kikko

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #11 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 09:57:00 »
Thank you Simon, I'm glad to know that I have an important plant, it was a friend's present, so I suppose  it's still more value.
Also thanks to fanecchissimo for his point of view and to xwa27 for compliments, the plant comes from seed.

Offline Simon

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #12 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 10:35:02 »
Parchis, It is a very special plant...or should say.. they are special plants because in effect you have two plants in one!
Fane, All opinions are welcome! I love discussing such things so thanks for your reply.
Me I have no knowledge of human biology but I have done a bit of plant biology. I am not sure but I think Mosaic ism is similar to what occurs when plants show variegation that is random and at a guess I would say it is when somatic (body)cells bearing different genetics go through the process of division and differentientation into plant parts after being created by the initial cells.
I may be wrong but perhaps it is only plants that have initial cells.They are quite well documented.
It seems to me that the idea that initial cells are the origin of plant sectors and that all the somatic cells in a plant sector carry the genetics of the intial cell responsible for producing that sector explains the astro quite well. It is just my interpretation of plant morphology to apply the idea to that plant.. In that case I think the slices do have a perfect number, there are 9 nudum slices and 7  with flecks. 16 slices all together with each rib representing two slices and probably two corresponding initials in the meristem that are responsible for each ribs creation.
 In plants a chimera describes an individual with different genetics in sectors of cells. Either slices like a cake or layers like the skin. There are also graft chimera which are a mix of species created by growth at a graft union and more like a true animal chimera. It is confusing but the same term is used for these very different chimera. I guess the reasoning is that in sectorial chimera there are, in effect, two different organisms in the body of one. This can be proven by propagating from the different sectors to produce plants with uniform appearance the same as the sector of origin.
 As far as theories go I also think an overproduction of initial cells is probably responsible for crested growth.
« Last Edit: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 10:40:49 by Simon »

Offline Simon

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #13 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 12:39:26 »
Just been doing a bit of catch up reading on this subject and I realized that mosaicism in animals and chimera in plants are the same thing but the terminology is different(and confusing!). I am a plant guy so I had never come across the term mosaicism until you mentioned it Faneccheissimo. Mosaicism happens differently in plants because of how they grow and distribute new cells.
I found this interesting link that explains it all way better than I ever could. Don't know why I even tried given my patchy knowledge on the subject. All I can say is that it was very hot in my greenhouses today maybe my brain got fried! :o
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/HORT604/LectureSuppl/AnatomyChimeras/AnatomyChimeras05.pdf

Offline fanecchissimo

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #14 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 12:57:30 »
interesting document.
will read in depht as soon as possible.

effectively there they call chimeras those i called mosaicism.

in humans, mosaicism is important because some cell could be problematic and some other not in the same tissue.

in human is a part of late ebryogenesis, if i remember well. so  it is not regarding somatic cell anyway.

for crested plants: ok, probably there are more "initial cells"(wich have several kind of different potentials), but the problem is... why?
is it a hormone problem? (inheritable probably)
a genetic mutation in oncogenes or oncosuppressors? (not necessarily inheritable)
is it an ambiental problem? (such as carcinogenetic substances as Cr 6+ or organic mutagens such as idroxy ureas)

sorry for the OT...

quite a difficut theme.. surely big...
every hypotesis has some chances in different cultivars to me...

parchis:
i hope you can pollinate and show us your  little "kids" :)

Offline Carlo & Daniele

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #15 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 15:57:25 »
very nice topic guys!
it would be nice to compare the results of one fruit grown on the nudum part and another one grown on the "white part" crossed with the same plant. What do you think?
Carlo & Daniele

Offline kikko

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #16 on: Friday, 09 December 2011 - 17:27:03 »
I will try to do so if possible next year....

Offline kikko

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Re: WIERD ASTRO.
« Reply #17 on: Monday, 30 January 2012 - 17:13:45 »

Offline gk80

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Re: Weird Astro
« Reply #18 on: Saturday, 04 February 2012 - 01:12:16 »
I had a similar plant but it then turned normal. Also... this plant is brown but it has patches of green. Difficult to notice in the photo... but it's there.




By the way, what is the name of this brown/violet asterias? I've plenty of them in my last sowings.


Offline Carlo & Daniele

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Re: Weird Astro
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday, 08 February 2012 - 17:09:26 »
I heard some people call them 'purple', but do not know if the name it's a true cultivar name.
Carlo & Daniele

 

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